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[Rick Wilson]

Was reading some interesting "commentary" on Twitter about how continuity programs like membership sites are getting way too sneaky by using "forced continuity", meaning that that once you get in for the special trial period offer you have to "opt out" or your credit card wll continue to be dinged each month.

Problem being that it usually isn't clear up front that one will automatically billed each month after trial UNLESS you cancel within the trial period. They're obviously betting that people will forget to cancel and their cc will be billed.

The site in question doesn't say one way or the other. Tony mentioned that the FTC requires this info to be conspicuously posted on the site. (Thanx Tony, for the link to the FTC page!) I ddn't even see any mention in their TOS (purchase agreement) That surprised me as I know many don't read fine print.

And so it goes ...

I came across a site that uses the continuity thing and they do post the info by their order link. Does this one take care of the issue?

$1

“14 Day Trial”

1 trial for 14 days and then $xx monthly access

YES!

Please open the doors to <membership site> for me for just $1 Dollar for 14 days.

I realize others are paying <$xx> per month for this tremendous membership program.
But I get to try it out for just $1 for 14 days then, 1 trial for 14 days and then $xx monthly access.

I realize if I'm not happy, I can cancel before the 14th day and never be charged another dime again.

Please bill me only $1 for this 14 day trial, then <$xx> after that.

I realize I can cancel at anytime and when I do so I will never be billed again.

Aaahhh ... Life online. 

 

[Tony Blake]

Rick...

I know you saw the back-and-forth I had last night on Twitter about this same subject... continuity by itself is not bad, forced continuity can be done ethically too... BUT... the biggest problem right now is HIDDEN forced continuity -- which is both highly illegal and unethical...

With HIDDEN forced continuity (HFC) the buyer is unaware that they are getting into a continuity program, has not been advised of the charges and how often they are charged and does not have information to either turn down the continuity offer nor how to stop/refund/disenroll from the continuity program...

HFC's are becoming pervasive on the net and some of the biggest offenders and abusers are some of the big names in marketing (or as I like to bluntly and "lovingly" call them: scumbags!)... it's easy money by tricking people into getting into something they have not been fully informed about... and they not only trick them to get them in but make it difficult to get out...

To me marketing like this smacks of desperation and an inability to really market a product... products/services/newsletters/membership sites, etc. should not have to be marketed in a sneaky, low-down, underhanded, con-man-like, unethical manner -- they should sell on their merits and not by forcing buyers, without their knowledge, into a program/offer... if a continuity program cannot stand on its own by posting the REQUIRED legal information and has to be hidden then it really says something about the quality of the crap being peddled... no wonder the marketing world has such a bad reputation... it's because of BS like this...

The FTC has certain and specific guidelines (click HERE to read them) when it comes to continuity programs (clear or forced) and they MUST be posted clearly and conspicuously... they are:

Terms and Conditions

Sellers must give you information about the plan's terms and conditions, clearly and conspicuously, in their promotional materials. These terms may include:

    * that you become a member if you accept the introductory merchandise or initial round of services - unless you cancel;
    * that periodic delivery of merchandise or services will occur - with no further action on your part;
    * a description of the merchandise or services you agree to buy;
    * whether there's a minimum purchase;
    * how often you'll receive the products or services;
    * an explanation of the plan's billing procedure for each shipment or period of service.
    * how much time you have to review "on approval" merchandise before you have to pay;
    * the terms of the plan's refund or return policy;
    * how and when you can cancel your membership; and
    * the price of the goods or services if you fail to cancel, including shipping and handling, if applicable.

Here's the thing... I've spoken with lawyers who tell me that the FTC is already investigating continuity program abuses in the Internet marketing space... they're going to come down hard on some marketers and it's going to affect the entire industry across the board -- me, I'm hoping it happens soon and that those marketers get whacked BIG TIME... they're going to deserve everything they get and then some!

It's time that our industry rise up and go against BS HFC offers/programs... abuses such as this have to stop... it not only hurts the buyers and kills the sellers reputation (although lemmings abound in this biz) but also hurts the industry as a whole because it sets a bad precedent (that so many without a clue are following) as well as makes what we do look like one big con to the rest of the world...

Enough is enough... my advice... if you get whacked by an HFC go right ahead and complain to the FTC about it... do not hesitate to point to those that are abusing your trust and using BS tactics to get your money... the sooner some of these unethical HFC users get whacked by the feds the sooner this will all stop and people will be FORCED to market on a more ethical and upfront manner...

Success!!!

Tony Blake
Marketing Mindreader™
New Media/Content2.0™ Maven
Õ¿Õ¬

[Rick Wilson]

Thanks for the added info, Tony!

As mainly an affiliate marketer, I have, as it's turned out, in the past promoted what I thought were good membership sites by people with a similar type of "trial offer" but really never caught the forced continuity part of it. But the info was in the "fine print" or TOS or somewhere hard to find. Which is obviously in violation of FTC policy.

Thanx again for making that issue a bit more obvious to me.


Have Fun!

 

[Miss Sally]

When I join a membership site, I always pay with PayPal because unsubscribing is easy. Once you've unsubscribed through PP, an unethical marketer can attempt to "ding" your account all they want, but they won't get another cent.

If a continuity site didn't offer PP as a payment option, I'd be mighty suspicious and most likely wouldn't joint.

[Lisa Preston]

Hi Sally -
It's not necessarily only membership sites who use forced continuity, and frankly, that's not even a problem as long as the marketer is transparent about it.

Let's say someone tells you "Hey! I'm gonna GIVE you a $5000 product for $1!!! No strings attached!!"

Then in one of the BONUSES, a free copy of a newsletter, let's say....

But the $1 you paid you find out is actually just the initial payment on a subscription to a $30 newsletter?

PayPal sides on the side of the seller with digital products. You can't get a refund if it's not part of the original offer, and the seller grants one.

It's the HIDDEN forced continuity that's a problem. If you want to use that business model, be totally up front, make sure people know what they're signing up for.

[zeitgeist]

It really should go without saying that if you sign up for a trial that is not free, you will be charged again at some point. I can't think of any examples that don't work that way. That's the whole point of a trial. Usually you are getting the initial period at a discount, which should be a good thing, not a criminal thing.

With PayPal especially, it's impossible to get into a recurring charge without being aware of it, unless you just can't read.

There's a very good reason some may not use PayPal for this- if something happens to that account, all their recurring billing is gone.

BTW, I am not condoning hiding the continuity aspect... but it is interesting to see even some who I'd hope would know better not noticing that part of it.

[Lisa Preston]

It was a huge discussion yesterday on a guy's launch... that is EXACTLY what he was doing. He never said a word about forced continuity in his sales letter - you only learn about it after you pay. NOT kosher.

He wasn't calling it a "trial" anything. It was "Buy my product for $1 - and I'll even be giving the dollar to charity!! No tricks, no anything, blah, blah, blah..."

That's what started this thread.

[zeitgeist]

If you're talking about the "MB retires" offer, I signed up for it, and it says right on the sales letter about the continuity (first month free). When I bought it, it was also explained how to cancel that.

This was the clue for me: "if you don’t want to continue receiving it it’s simple and easy to cancel your $29.97 monthly subscription"

The email after purchase even specified the exact billing date, which is about 4 weeks from now.

I'm surprised others are surprised by this, given the above. And nobody seems to appreciate all the content that's being offered for $1- I guess they'd rather complain about the $29.97 that won't get charged til next month and can be cancelled before then.

[Rick Wilson]

It was a huge discussion yesterday on a guy's launch... that is EXACTLY what he was doing. He never said a word about forced continuity in his sales letter - you only learn about it after you pay. NOT kosher.

He wasn't calling it a "trial" anything. It was "Buy my product for $1 - and I'll even be giving the dollar to charity!! No tricks, no anything, blah, blah, blah..."

Hi Lisa!

Yeah ... This guy didn't even have it listed in his "purchase terms" that he had a link to. THAT I thought odd. He DID mention the newsletter part in the sales letter but it wasn't in a conspicuous place per the FTC guidelines Tony listed above. It SHOULD have been mentioned in the order area of the page to make people aware of it but obviously that wasn't his intent.

No wonder the general publs thinks of IMers as snakeoil salesmen & saleswomen. 


 

[Rick Wilson]

I'm surprised others are surprised by this, given the above. And nobody seems to appreciate all the content that's being offered for $1- I guess they'd rather complain about the $29.97 that won't get charged til next month and can be cancelled before then.

I think you're missing the point. This info should be given to the "potential" buyer BEFORE he pays for it NOT after. I don't think anyone is saying that the products being offered for $1 are not worth it, it's about the obvious intent to get the buyer in the loop and maybe they'll forget to cancel in time to prevent a recurring charge. I don't think it's really right to force someone who just paid for something to then have to "opt-out" (cancel) further recurring charges without them knowing about that possbility BEFORE they paid.

As Tony mentioned in his earlier post, Forced continuity itself is not wrong, as long as it's made known upfront.

From the FTC excerpt that Tony posted earlier:

Sellers must give you information about the plan's terms and conditions, clearly and conspicuously, in their promotional materials

Heck ... This guy didn't even have this info in the Terms of Service. That's pretty stupid. IMO, of course. heh heh


My added nickel anyway ...

 

[Tony Blake]

Zeitgeist...

The disclaimer and continuity information was not on the main page until today... when I started talking about this on Twitter last night it was not there... seems my creating a stink about it and pointing to the FTC regs is what may have prompted placing the continuity information on the main salespage... If I hadn't brought up the fact that I found it quite shady, unethical and that I was going to tell my 15k list members about it I have a feeling nothing would have been done and you would only have found out about the continual charges AFTER the initial sale...

HIDDEN continuity offers are not good... they suck... they are a lie, a scam, a con... don't spring crap on people AFTER they've bought your product...

Again, I'm not against continuity offers, if they are done above board and ethically... it's when you hide and obfuscate the added charges that I have SEVERE problems with the strategy... being transparent in what we do is the ONLY way to build trust in our buyers and grow a business/profits...

As I said earlier, the FTC is investigating heavily as to what online marketers are doing... they've woken up to the fact about all the crap that's going on... and when they come down on this market it's not going to be pretty and it's going to affect ALL of us in one way or another... we seriously need to clean up this bullshit to prevent the legal and regulatory apocalypse that's going to hit us of we don't...

Success!!!

Tony Blake
Marketing Mindreader™
New Media/Content2.0™ Maven
Õ¿Õ¬

[Jason Parker]

Oh that junk pissed me off today...

It really wasn't worth my time trying to figure out how to get it canceled. 

I must have signed up before he sent the "how to cancel" message out...  Hell, I didn't even know about the extra charge until a friend pointed it out. 

Can you imagine just how many (possibly thousands) are getting the shaft right now?

What a slime ball!

[Bev Clement]

I got a link to the sales page, before Tony created on twitter, as that happens when I was asleep.

I saw in tiny letters that I would be signing up for his newsletter which was whatever the price was he was charging.

My thought was why would I pay that much for a newsletter when brilliant ones are free.  Yes, I'm a skinflint, but I don't care who the person is I want to know the newsletter is good.

Hidden continuity is never good, and not only that it gives the rest of us a bad name, in an industry which is going down the pan as it is with all the dodgy marketers around. 

[Floyd Fisher]

It was a huge discussion yesterday on a guy's launch... that is EXACTLY what he was doing. He never said a word about forced continuity in his sales letter - you only learn about it after you pay. NOT kosher.

He wasn't calling it a "trial" anything. It was "Buy my product for $1 - and I'll even be giving the dollar to charity!! No tricks, no anything, blah, blah, blah..."

That's what started this thread.

Nothing personal, but I just read it tonite, and picked up on the continuity straight up just by reading the salesletter.

Did he change it?  Or am I just too smart for my own good?

[Kevin Riley]

Basically, my new policy is: If they're asking for $1 on my credit card, I pass on the offer. At least with PayPal, it's easy to click the unsubscribe.