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[Janet Sawyer]

Forgive me for lurking around here and making this first post as a rant BUT

I really can't believe the cheek of these two guys (names withheld, but if it rings a bell you know who they are!)

Almost 12 months ago I bought into their system. 
The price tag nearly $1000. 00 (actually 3 installments of $397 so it was a liitle bit more than the 1K!)

Their system was promoted as being the best membership/cms system around, nothing would beat it hands down.  They said they used it and their sites were impressive.

Now, being someowhat of a dabhand at Joomla and Wordpress and anything cms or php based, I thought Yeah! at that price for a licence for 10 sites, I'll bite. 

Because, I decided to buy on the day of release, I got what they alluded to were Fast Action Bonuses. . . . . . (FABS) only they weren't, because they weren't even made and working at the time of purchase.
Ok, nevermind, just to have the basic system would be good enough for then, I'll wait for the bonuses.

Slowly over the next few months from purchase, bugs were found in the script.  Support was useless, various independant help desks were set up by users as a peer to peer let's help each other type of thing.
Bug reports were treated with the attitude of "Well you must be stupid, because our copy works!"
not good customer service really. 

And the fact that they then went round the marketing semminars bragging about doing 1. 6M - well shut my mouth 

To make ammends, they start giving the odd free thing out, not good when you have already got that as a fast action bonus. . .  kind of stinks (guru pooh!) 4 months after paying it's still not performing. . . . .  saga goes on and on.

Eventually, 10 months from launch, there is a stable version almost working, there is a half decent support system in place and most of the modules/plugins have been developed and stabilised.

Today I get an email saying that if I want to have support and upgrades for the program for the next 12 months I've got to pay $197.  WHAT! It's only been working correctly with the bonuses for 2 months.

But, they tell me this is a bargain, because the $197 will give me access to all the plugins that have been made for the program to date! and any that may become available over the next 12 months.

So my FAB's were not worth the PDF file they came in, AND the one ADDITIONAL MODULE THAT I have paid an another $97 for is now going to be mine for free. . . . . . .  and the freaking program still has problems that you wouldn't believe. 

Talk about being held to ransom!

Thanks for listening.

[Chris Lockwood]

Sorry you got burned.

I passed on that offer since their sales letter didn't tell me why the software should cost $1000 when there are good free alternatives that have a solid base of support.

Plus the fact that the source code is encrypted (although they didn't admit that outright, but I could tell from the requirements)... meaning that you couldn't modify it and nobody would be able to add 3rd-party plugins or templates like the 1000+ that are available for Joomla.

Plus the fact that there was no trial or demo version told me it either was buggy or limited in features or both (sorry but a video is not a demo).

Plus I wasn't too excited about the look of their own sites supposedly running on that software.

But the main thing is, they made a lot of money from the launch, and isn't that the main thing?

[Michael Oksa]

Sorry to hear you got scammed Janet. Others may disagree, but that's what I call it.

It's one thing to provide customer no-service, release a buggy product, under deliver, and screw your customers out of almost $1200. It's quite anither to go aroud bragging about how you cleaned up and laughed all the way to the bank.

There's a special place reserved for people like that. 

And it sounds like you can;t even salvage something from it, meaning it's basically a total loss.

Best regards,
Michael Oksa

p.s. If anybody would like to send me a PM with the names of these guys, I would like to make sure I never do business with them.

[Chris Lockwood]

> It's one thing to provide customer no-service, release a buggy product, under deliver, and screw your customers out of almost $1200. It's quite anither to go aroud bragging about how you cleaned up and laughed all the way to the bank.

But that's so common with the "big boys" that it's almost a cliche... it's like once they've collected the money, their job is done.

And despite what people seem to think (that doing business that way will hurt them), the people doing it seem to be making buckets of cash.

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Janet,

Sorry you got burned like that. That storyline is ALL too common these days. 


Post this over at the "Name And Shame" Forum TOO. That's what it's there for.

http://ablakeforum.com/index.php/board,5.0.html

Get the word out about people like this. But then again, some of these people could care less what they do as long as the cash is still coming in.


Good Luck!

 

[Mike Ambrosio]

> It's one thing to provide customer no-service, release a buggy product, under deliver, and screw your customers out of almost $1200. It's quite anither to go aroud bragging about how you cleaned up and laughed all the way to the bank.

But that's so common with the "big boys" that it's almost a cliche... it's like once they've collected the money, their job is done.

And despite what people seem to think (that doing business that way will hurt them), the people doing it seem to be making buckets of cash.

What, you think this practice is reserved only for the "big boys"? Not hardly. Been scammed by more than one "no-name"... 

Scamming, zero support, etc. is a game way too many people play. And it WILL hurt your business. 

I know the program Janet is referring to. I didn't buy it because I am quite happy with Fantasos, so I saw no need for it. But this is not the first time I heard this complaint...and subsequently, I have not purchased anything else from them either.

Mike

[Janet Sawyer]

Sorry you got burned.
But the main thing is, they made a lot of money from the launch, and isn't that the main thing?

Chris,

Thanks, but I wouldn't say "burned", just "suckered"

Sorry to hear you got scammed Janet.  Others may disagree, but that's what I call it. 

It's one thing to provide customer no-service, release a buggy product, under deliver, and screw your customers out of almost $1200.  It's quite anither to go aroud bragging about how you cleaned up and laughed all the way to the bank.

There's a special place reserved for people like that.   >:D

And it sounds like you can;t even salvage something from it, meaning it's basically a total loss. 

Best regards,
Michael Oksa

p. s.  If anybody would like to send me a PM with the names of these guys, I would like to make sure I never do business with them.

Michael,

Again, I'll stick with "suckered" 
I will be able to salvage something from it, and it won't be a total loss, but it has been an extremely disappointing and frustrating time up to now.

> It's one thing to provide customer no-service, release a buggy product, under deliver, and screw your customers out of almost $1200.  It's quite anither to go aroud bragging about how you cleaned up and laughed all the way to the bank.

But that's so common with the "big boys" that it's almost a cliche. . .  it's like once they've collected the money, their job is done.

And despite what people seem to think (that doing business that way will hurt them), the people doing it seem to be making buckets of cash.

Chris,

I was fine with them, I knew most of it was the "Beer" talking  but observed their behaviour, they were so to speak "bouyed up" by the crowd!

What really has choked me up is the fact that they are now giving everyone the bonuses AS LONG AS WE ALL PAY ANOTHER $195 for another 12 months!

Hi Janet,

Sorry you got burned like that.  That storyline is ALL too common these days.   >:(


Post this over at the "Name And Shame" Forum TOO.  That's what it's there for.

hxxp: ablakeforum. com/index. php/board,5. 0. html

Get the word out about people like this.  But then again, some of these people could care less what they do as long as the cash is still coming in.


Good Luck!

 

Rick,

I don't wish to name and shame  :( 
After all, these two have only done what others have done before them.  It's just the fact that they are again asking for money so that their paying customers can receive updates and support for the next 12 months, when, in reality, the script has only been reliably working with the promised bonuses for just under 2 months  ::)

What, you think this practice is reserved only for the "big boys"? Not hardly.  Been scammed by more than one "no-name". . .   :-\

Scamming, zero support, etc.  is a game way too many people play.  And it WILL hurt your business.  

I know the program Janet is referring to.  I didn't buy it because I am quite happy with Fantasos, so I saw no need for it.  But this is not the first time I heard this complaint. . . and subsequently, I have not purchased anything else from them either.

Mike

Mike,

You are quite right, it is not just the "bigger names" that you have to look out for.  There are so many ways to be relieved of your money, and not just on line I might add.   
I am glad it's not just me "complaining"

Thanks all for your replies, I promise the next post over here will not be a rant.   

Janet

[Chris Lockwood]

> What, you think this practice is reserved only for the "big boys"? Not hardly.

Nope, I didn't say that. But I'm just pointing out that some of the better-known folks get away with stuff all the time. I'm also not saying that it's all of them. And of course I'm more likely to find out about the big boys doing it since they get more publicity.

For every marketing tactic people complain about, I can think of well-known names using it. It wouldn't surprise me if the people complaining were buying from those same names.

[Janet Sawyer]

Chris,

I think you will find that Mike was just making a general comment, about scammers in general (or so I thought  )

It might have been the way that I picked and posted (glued) the replies together that made it look otherwise.  Sorry.

> What, you think this practice is reserved only for the "big boys"? Not hardly. 

Nope, I didn't say that.  But I'm just pointing out that some of the better-known folks get away with stuff all the time.  I'm also not saying that it's all of them.  And of course I'm more likely to find out about the big boys doing it since they get more publicity.

For every marketing tactic people complain about, I can think of well-known names using it.  It wouldn't surprise me if the people complaining were buying from those same names.

They only get away with it, if we let them.
I don't think any of us are as pure as the white driven snow, there are always skeletons in everyone's closet, but, and it's a big BUTdo those skeletons rattle?

[Chris Lockwood]

OK, I'll play along. How do we "not let them"?

I can refuse to buy from someone I know does bad things, but that doesn't affect them much, losing my one sale. Even if I start telling people, it's still not even 1% of the marketplace, and that's if people believe me.

If I make the info public beyond friends, people come out of the woodwork to defend the other guy, call me a jealous liar... I could even open myself up to legal action if I don't word things a certain way.

Example: A couple years ago a somewhat-known marketer bought one of my original niche ebooks on Clickbank, then a few months ago reworded it a little bit, including the sales letter, and offered it in his master resale rights site! My partner wrote that stuff and nobody else had rights to it. I joined the guy's site. I have our content he was illegally giving out. I also have a receipt in his name from when he bought the ebook from us, even with an email address he regularly uses. His name is not very common at all. I posted info on this on another forum and got flamed. He's a nice guy, how dare you slander him, and all that.

The guy even sort of admitted this- he removed the product plus another one he apparently ripped off from someone else and emailed his members about it, claiming some ghostwriter cheated him... but I think he probably just gave the products to a ghostwriter to change a bit. Remember he bought it in his own name.

I still see people promoting this guy and doing deals with him. I've written several of them explaining the above- some of them are even people I know personally. Yet their attitude seems to be that he didn't rip them off, so they'll just keep working with him.

Let me ask, if you knew someone was a pirate and there was concrete proof, would you do JVs with him? You'll probably say no, yet this guy is doing more JVs than I've ever seen. Even after people have been notified.

Example 2: A year ago a well known guy offered PLR to one of his popular products. He only sold 50 or 100 licenses and sold out in days. The download link was supposed to be mailed to us all at the same time, in a week.

A few days later, I got the link, but all that was there was the sales letter, no product.

I replied to that email, which bounced back, so I had to track down his help desk, register, etc., and put in a ticket.

After 2 days, I got a reply stating that what was sent was correct and the case was closed. So I wrote back asking them to look at their own sales letter, which said I would get doc files, mp3s, PSD graphics, etc. I mean- what am I supposed to deliver to my customers?

I never got another reply from the help desk, despite several more updated tickets from me, so I filed a PayPal dispute, just trying to get their attention to get what I paid for. No response, so I escalated it to a claim. No response.

Meanwhile, I found out several friends had bought the same offer and got the same results, but apparently one of them knew who to call and threaten, so he managed to get the real download file, which you might think they would have bothered to send to all the customers, since we were all in the autoresponder already, right?

I shouldn't have to have a friend who bought the same deal in order to get what I bought, should I?

Now when I tell this story, the typical reaction is it's not his fault, but his help desk people aren't very good. Well, that's his problem, not mine, whether he is aware of it or not.

But wait, there's more...

After I bought that PLR but before I knew there was a problem, the same guy offered PLR to another of his products for buying some thing through his affiliate link... then I realized there was no info on how to claim that bonus. So I went the help desk route with that and got no response at all.

Again, asking around, I found several others in the same boat and eventually got the files.

I know people who know this entire story and STILL promote this guy and his products.

Some of them are even people who got stiffed on that PLR deal!

I mean, after someone's treated you that way, would you still promote his stuff?

I called one of them up and asked why he was promoting, since he had told me before that the same guy had stiffed him on affiliate commissions!

I asked him that, and he said he wanted to give him a second chance! Second chance? More like a fourth chance, but how often do dishonest people suddenly change their ways? How about giving someone else a first chance?

Uh, somebody refused to pay what they owe, and you STILL promote their stuff?


It's because of things like this that I confidently say that some of the big names (and some smaller ones) get away with this crap all the time... amazingly even some people who are aware of it keep working with them. So this is why I'm very skeptical about our ability to "not let them" get away with it.

Sadly, some people see this going on and think they have to operate this way since that's what they see others do, like the athlete who takes steroids since the others take them.

I know this is long, but I wanted to make it very clear where I'm coming from on this, since my opinion is not based on theory.

[Lisa Preston]

Chris, I totally agree.

There simply is no way to stop people who lie, cheat and steal when others continue to condone it - either by "giving them another chance" or ignoring what has happened to others since it "didn't happen to me".

It is most definitely the reason for the "Name & Shame" forum (worded correctly, as you wisely pointed out!).

[Jeffery]

Janet, I 'think' I know who you are referring to and it is an awful situation. When I first saw the product I was taken by surprise. It is actually a hybrid application from open source. The open source version is pretty solid BTW. I did point that out to a few people in other forums when it was first promoted.

Jeffery 100%

[Janet Sawyer]

Chris,

I hear you, and understand your points, I have tried in the past myself, to point out some peoples actions and wrong doings to others, and have had the same kind of reactions that you have had.
I have some very rude comments made about me, but it won't stop me from still trying.

There is one person that I have come across during my time on line, that I will never, ever, work with again, not even if he paid me for past works carried out and up front for any future work, and this guys reputation is rock solid - go figure!  I might also add, I know he has done the same to one or two others as well.

Thankfully, I feel there are more good guys than bad guys. I have my own personal "do not buy from list" and will not promote anything that anyone on that list offers, I am also now unsubscribing from peoples lists who promote the products of people on my "do not buy from list".  I know, one sale lost, they are not going to loose sleep over it.


Jeffrey,

Thanks for that information, I must have missed your warning somewhere. My bad.

[Chris Lockwood]

> I am also now unsubscribing from peoples lists who promote the products of people on my "do not buy from list".

The problem with that is that the list owner may be unaware of the problem, so you are punishing the wrong person. Do you write these people and tell them why you are unsubscribing?

I only found out about that pirate because I joined his site through an affiliate's email promo. I wrote that affiliate back with details and he replied with an apology and said he wouldn't promote that person any more, and from what I can tell, he didn't. (He was one of the few who believed me, even when I offered to send people both ebooks and let them decide.) So if I had just unsubscribed from the list, he wouldn't have known anything was wrong, and I'd have slightly hurt the wrong person.


I forgot to mention in my post-  why are some of these people touted as experts or people to model if they can't handle simple things like delivering the correct file or responding to help desk tickets? But then, when making the sale is the only thing that counts...

Another little story- a very well respected marketer did a firesale back in the day when PayPal allowed split payments. His email explained that I would have to make 2 payments in a row at the time of purchase, so I bought, and the first payment turned out to be the full price. So I thought OK, he doesn't have the split thing set up yet- I guess it's just one payment. Then after paying I was taken to another page where I had to pay another 50% of the price. I thought OK, I'll pay that so I can get to the download page, then ask him to refund the overpayment. (Only because the guy is so well thought of.) So I did, but after paying 150%, there were no downloads.

I emailed him, saying not only was I overcharged, but I didn't get the downloads. I got a reply saying the split pay script wasn't working- OK, then why did he send out the promo? But no downloads and no partial refund.

I had to put in PayPal disputes on both payments and escalate both to claims to get my money back. The whole time I was just asking for the product and a refund of the overcharge.

Now if some newbie did all that people would say he should find another line of work, but when the big guys do it, you're the bad guy for even telling the story of what happened.

We're supposed to model ourselves after these people?

[Lisa Preston]

We're supposed to model ourselves after these people?

In a word, NO.

Although there are many who have managed to gain financial freedom from their work in an ethical way, there are many more who have not, yet continue to maintain that they are "experts" in their field... usually EVERY field.

I personally do not model myself after anyone. I prefer to select, absorb and learn what I can from those who have proven to be honest (due diligence) marketers, then apply the principles that fit my own business model. I may absolutely think someone is an incredible marketer and deserving of the elevated "Guru" status so many employ for their own ends, but that doesn't mean that his processes will work for me.

I think those who rise above the crowd are those who do NOT follow blindly, become "mini me" to the latest sensation. I also find that those who have done so (risen above the crowd) are unique individuals, and they have carved a place for themselves with hard work, focus, business savvy, talent and sometimes sheer personality.